Benson Upah is the spokesperson for the Nigeria Labour Congress (NLC). In this interview with Weekend Trust, he expressed concern that the price of fuel may increase to N5,000 per litre. He added that the recent increase runs contrary to the agreement the union reached with the federal government.

During the week, the price of petrol went up again. What will the NLC do about it?

We are planning to have a meeting with the appropriate organs of the Nigerian Labour Congress (NLC). Those organs will take the decisions. We will take decisions that we believe would be in the best interest of our members and possibly, this country.

Not to pre-empt the outcome of the meeting, what should Nigerians expect?

It will be difficult for me to preempt what the NLC will do because the organ has a very large membership. Let me use the example of the National Executive Council of the NLC; it comprises the president, general secretaries and treasurers of all affiliate unions.

It also comprises state chairmen and secretaries of the state councils of the 36 states and the FCT, as well as members of the National Executive Council of the NLC. So, you can see it is a big family. In the absence of a delegates’ conference, it is the highest organ making body of the congress. So, there will be multiple ideas coming in; you know, we usually have robust debates. We look at issues and the implications from multiple perspectives. I will not be able to preempt the direction for you.

Nonetheless, the mood, I can tell you, is that of anger and I want to say that it is not only within the Nigerian Labour Congress that you have anger. Virtually every Nigerian is angry, except that first one per cent that is maintained by the state. You know, that one per cent has everything; we give them everything, those are the only ones who are not complaining. Every other Nigerian is complaining. So, our mood is reflective of the general mood of the country.

Recently, the president of the NLC said President Tinubu betrayed the union, can you elaborate more on this?

After the announcement, the next day, a Senior Special Assistant to the President on Print Media, Mr Abdulaziz Abdulaziz, said we were lying and there was no agreement. We want to reiterate that we feel betrayed by the present increase in the pump price of petroleum products.

One, when Mr. President called for the negotiation, recall that we were stuck at N62,000 and he made two offers; the first was to agree on the N250,000 we recommended while the price of PMS will rise to N1,500 or N2,000 or he will pay N62,000 and the status quo remains. He told us we had a few hours to consult. The labour leaders did not take the bait, rather we asked to be given more time and later requested at least one week to consult outside the Villa. At the end of that one week, the Presidency met again and the labour leaders unambiguously said we would not accept the offer of N250,000.

This was out of consideration for the well-being of the average Nigerian, because we said ‘what would be the effect of this on the ordinary person?’

To keep this brief, the president acted in breach of his promise to labour leaders and he knows the truth. But let us even look at this matter; what has happened goes beyond the parameters of minimum wage and negotiation. It negatively affects the generality of Nigerians. Since the first wave of price increase, occasioned by the removal of fuel subsidy on May 29, 2023, Nigerians have been trying to reorder their lives to accept the fate they never bargained for.

Coming to terms with 500 per cent hike in cost of education, transportation, food and everything else is not easy. At a time they were just trying to adjust to the new normal, you introduce another shock. So, what we have now is uncertainty; we have moved from pain to uncertainty. In fact, this matter goes beyond the logic and philosophy of our national minimum wage.

When the president mentioned that fuel price will increase to N2,000, one of the labour leaders interjected him and said, ‘Sir, you have removed fuel subsidy, so which other thing are you removing again?’ Remember, the subsidy was removed and prices were stabilised.  So, how many times are you removing subsidy, that you have removed? Subsidy was never restored at any point in time as they claimed. So, what will inform moving the pump price of PMS from N650 to N1,500 or N2,000?

I want to tell you something, what this signals is that Nigerians have not seen the end yet, we may end up paying nothing less than N5,000 per liter for fuel in this country. We hope not to get there but if we get there, the decision will be left to Nigerians.

Can the president justify the increase from N650 to N1,000 vis-à-vis the current minimum wage?

I would have said let the president answer that question, but clearly, there is no correlation between the national minimum wage and what he has done. In fact, at the time we demanded N615,000 as the national minimum wage, we broke it down to say N40,000 for rent, N20,000 for food for a family of six. Our permutations were based on a family of six, a husband, wife and four children. We were able to justify that.

We were patriotic enough by coming down to N250,000. But of course, even at that, you saw what the president did. He gave us the devil’s alternatives to choose from and we chose the one we felt was going to be less injurious to Nigerians, believing that he will keep his word but barely a month after, he violated it.

What is the status of the minimum wage, has the federal government commenced payment?

Only one state has started paying and it is Adamawa. We commend the governor for the spirit. But of course, while the process of negotiation was going on, the Edo State governor paid N70,000, with a promise to pay more if the minimum wage was to be resolved to something higher. Lagos paid N70,000. Other than this, I am not aware that other states have started paying, though committees have been put together to work out consequential adjustments to enable them commence payment.

I must tell you; governments are very rich now. What they declare and share from the federation account used to be N700bn, which has since moved to N1.3trn. That is what they declare and it does not include the ones they keep aside and pass under the table. With all of that, have you seen any improvement in the quality of the life of Nigerians? There has been no commensurate improvement, rather what we have been getting is pain, penury and trauma.

What do you think will happen to the other promises the government made; like the CNG buses and other incentives they promised after removing the subsidy in the first instance?

We do not expect much from those promises. How many CNG buses have you seen as an individual? At the time those promises were made, we were also meeting with Innoson Motors, a local brand. We were also in discussion with a reliable foreign firm that makes CNG buses, Yutong, in China. They said they were ready. They assured us they will provide facilities to offer Nigerians soft loans to convert to CNG. At that time, the government said it would cost N800,000 to do it but these people were ready to do it at N250,000.

These facts were made available to the government, yet nothing happened and those conversations fizzled into thin air. So, compare that with what General Ibrahim Babangida did, when he made his own increment. IBB ensured that every state government had a transport company and even labour had a transport company known as Labour Transport Company. It was by virtue of what IBB did, trying to manage the effects of the minimal change when he did his own increase. It was even a minor increase that IBB did compared to what we are now seeing. So, he was prepared and there was no noticeable side effect.

Also, Abacha introduced PTDF, chaired by Gen. Muhammadu Buhari. The impact of PTDF was cross-sector, including providing exercise books. Clearly, our military leaders were better prepared than what we are witnessing today because they anticipated the effects and they were prepared for them.

The president announced that subsidy was gone and did not think of what will be the consequential effects of this policy pronouncement.

The Nigerian government and some other persons believe the current economic challenges are pains Nigerians have to bear for a better tomorrow, what do you have to say to that?

They are insulting our collective intelligence. Those who make such comments are not competent to do so because they are isolated from the pains we bear. The National Council of State passed a vote of confidence on the president the other day, all of them are on subsidy. Let me say this, all of them don’t pay for petrol; they don’t pay for light. We did say that they were not competent to pass any vote of confidence. It is Nigerians; those who face this heat that are competent to pass a vote of confidence.

Those that say we should bear the pains should be jailed or shot. For how long are we supposed to continue like this? This situation has gotten to a point where our yesterday is always better than our today.

I keep telling people who say Buhari was the worst that they are joking. For us at Labour, we found Buhari very accommodating. He did everything humanly possible to ensure that life was stable and good. When he came in, he gave money to the states to pay the backlog of salaries and pensions but it was diverted. He made other interventions to avoid the insane increases.

If you ask those same people now, they will tell you that the Buhari administration was very good. We are talking about less than two years ago. Before Buhari came, it was Jonathan. We said Jonathan had messed up this country, but now look at the indices and compare the exchange rate, the interest rate, the debt. So, we are in a situation where we are progressively getting worse.

Those people who say we need these pains should be shot, how much of these pains would they bear themselves? They can’t even bear one per cent of it. It is because they are isolated from this trauma; that is why they have the effrontery to say that we need the pain. We don’t need these pains. We don’t need the president who will come and complain. When this one first came, he said, ‘I asked for this job’. I was impressed by that, but later he said that these problems were caused by his predecessor. When any leader begins to talk like that, that leader has come to the end of the road in terms of ideas.

Credit: Daily Trust

Dr Efunbo Dosekun, a medical doctor with specialty in paediatrics, is the brain behind Outreach Medical Services. She has been in the medical field for more than four decades.

In this interview with Saturday Sun, she spoke on several health issues relating to women and children. Dr Dosekun stressed the need for both the states and the Federal Government to ensure good remuneration for health workers in the country so as to reduce the rate of migration of health workers (the Japa syndrome). She also advised the government on the need for partnership between federal and private hospitals for effective health care delivery system.

What motivated you to bring women together for the sake of finding a lasting solution to the healthcare issues among women and children?

As far as l am concerned, particularly to African culture, women, children and babies are vulnerable, especially babies. Again, I felt that referral system when we do have an acute problem suddenly with our health, is not good enough. There have been so many instances when we have seen children and babies brought in very late because the parents didn’t know anywhere to go. Or the parents made an attempt to go to the government hospital and had to wait for a long time, and probably not to be attended to. They may be just referred on and on from one hospital to the other till they finally go home or get frustrated. So I said Lagos is quite a developed city in infrastructure, so why don’t we have systems that match it in terms of modernity, system of communication? What I am talking about is medical response system where something has happened and you know a number to call, or you are advised to go to a particular type of hospital, health centre if it is not so bad. Or you may be advised to go to the emergency room. But there must be somebody you have to talk to when you are distressed. In England, you just ring 999 and within 10 minutes someone would attend to you. So I decided that even if it is only rudimentary, there must be a recall centre. So we did a presentation about this to a group of women called, “Women Connect” and they agreed to work with us. We spoke also to Rotary Club and they welcomed the idea. We want to change the narrative. We are mobilising women. We can’t leave everything to government. We need to come together as a movement and talk to people who are interested in social impact to help us. For instance, a community insurance or membership of a call centre for a small subscription can help. We can have access to your call centre and you give us direction 24/7, so that if anything happens at any time to somebody, the person must be able to speak to somebody and that person must be able to negotiate for the person where she would go to, or negotiate an ambulance to propel the person there, if necessary. There is so much being in the dark that I am very concerned. I have been a doctor for 43 years. I am soon going to retire.

Did you take into consideration the Nigerian factor? For instance, poor communication system, transportation, traffic, and so on?

I know there are a lot of constraints, but instead of clogging our heads with constraints, let’s concentrate more on the good things that can happen if there is some intelligence to our medical response system. You may not even get the phone number, but you know that the hospital does this good work; you could just rush off there as an emergency. The beautiful thing about it is that once it starts, we will be able to persuade our colleagues because there are a lot of things that mitigate or stop people from going to hospitals. We know that government hospitals are full. Lagos expanded over a period of 10, 12 years from 10 million to 24 million. And the growth of hospitals has not been so fast because it is not easy to set up a hospital. That is why private sector hospitals have to come in to help, because many private sector hospitals are not full. So we have to find a way which we can mobilise people who need urgent care.

There is increase in child and maternity mortality. What do you think is the cause and how can it be solved?

Everybody always say that they are ignorant, and don’t know what to do. It is a lie. The problem is lack of money. Lagos State Government has really tried in Lagos State. It is minimal. If you can get access to a bed in a Lagos State-owned hospital, it is because it has been taken care of by the Lagos State Government, but you have to pay for drugs, etc. Such is not obtainable in private hospitals. So, government needs to work with us in the private sector. They cannot fulfil the need of 24 million people in Lagos, that is the reason many go to traditional birth attendants (TBAs), and to the chemist boy. The first thing is that the government needs to collaborate with the private hospitals that are ready, because it is not all the private hospitals that are ready to start doing social impact work and changing the public health narrative.

In this situation, government should choose private hospitals to help them, particularly in the area of women, babies and children. This is necessary because the Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) rate is almost reaching its termination. Part of the goals is to reduce the mortality rate in children, women and babies. So we need private sector. We need to unlock the potential in the private sector. There are some people who are ready to look at these social issues and are ready to develop innovative and transformative ways of dealing with large crowds. It is possible; it is even done in Indian hospitals. l have seen how they have done it. They brought down the cost, but there must be numbers. Take for instance, if the government promises to give me 50 patients daily, l will expand my premises in order to take as many people as possible. l will have a training institute where l will take young nurses and develop them to be specialised in different skills so they will be able to support the physicians in executing their clinical roles.

So, there are so many things that could be done. The government can call us in and say, for each case you see, l will pay you this amount. Or government can send the subscribers of Lagos State insurance, but of course it has to be reviewed because the premium, the billing is too low and some of these cases require acute care. Acute care is different. It is not like giving analgesics, it is very acute. You are changing the drugs, high quality drugs. They are using oxygen and high skilled people. But the government must think about it. Government cannot just think about the primary health care, because if you think about it, you will still be having lots of deaths. As primary health care does only preventative measures, they do early diagnoses, but there must be well equipped hospitals that will take care of cases that have been diagnosed by primary health care. Without that it makes everything so shallow. Women should mobilise themselves and come together. We just have to care. Wives of politicians, senior bankers, industrialists, and so on, need to leave their ivory tower of splendour and protection and come and sensitise themselves and see the suffering and come together, and demand the physicians or health planners that are interested, to come together and plan.

Having been in the medical field for more than four decades in the healthcare system particularly taking care of children, what do you consider major health challenges facing babies, and how can they be prevented?

Pre-maturity in babies or babies appearing smaller than they should, that is sepsis, mothers having problem during the birthing process, can kill babies. Other killer diseases among babies include; a baby coming out not breathing well, and jaundice. Research has shown that the mother has to be in a good state before and after child birth to avoid malnutrition in babies. To avoid these diseases also, pregnant women should not just sit down at home, they must ensure they attend antenatal care.

I think Nigeria has done well in terms of providing primary health care that are facing antenatal care. There is such a wide choice on where pregnant women could go for antenatal care in Nigeria.

Also, pregnant women need to get in constant touch with doctors, senior nurses. There must be partnership. If there is proper antenatal care with expectant mothers taking their routine drugs, some of the pickup problems such as Caesarean Section (CS) should be detected on time and followed up appropriately.

There is what is called entrapatom period, that is 48 hours before and 48 hours after birth, just a period around delivery. That is when all sorts of things happen. It is a period the mother or the baby can die. A baby may come out not breathing well, but with skilled health practitioners around, some of these problems can be adequately taken care of. Having a baby at home or with traditional birth attendants, we want to see how we can reduce it. Those in rural and semi urban areas, I agree we have to train them, especially when there is no medical centre close by. When they are well trained, they will be able to identify dangers on time and follow up immediately. If those periods can be tidy, we will see fewer problems when the baby comes out.

In this country, we are seeing jaundice which is simple to treat in babies. It is just to put the baby under specialised light, and yet we are having jaundice. High jaundice destroys the baby.

In many West African countries they do not see it anymore, because they have a follow-up system called Health Surveillance System where they check the babies when they are three days, to make sure that they have not become very jaundiced. Our system is not strong enough. To treat jaundice is not rocket science. We need just strategies and then technical team, the doctors, to come up with a real robust programme that is around that time, 24 hours before and 24 hours after, to make sure that everything is standardized whenever the person is going to have the baby. Even the mothers can be trained in these early warning signs.

So when we finish having these things, we now must have a good emergency response system so that when things go wrong, you must be able to call a number. Those workers there must also have a conversation with the hospitals, find out who has a bed, so that we don’t do the crazy thing we are doing where we are sending people from one hospital to the other with a child that is gasping. Can you imagine the pain that parents are going to go through, and this in a private transport Keke Marwa in a country with bridges and skyscrapers? It is not right. Women have to stand up because the political system is still so immature. They are not being called to deliver their mandates. We all just sit down and wait for another election.

Some mothers do not like breastfeeding their babies, rather they prefer artificial milk. What is your take on this?

It is so important that women should breastfeed their babies very well because, breastfeeding does not only give the baby the right nutrient – babies who are well breast fed have a better attachment to their mothers. It is called bonding. It is an emotional bridge between a child and the parents. Research has found that those children who have solid attachment with their parents have less mental health problems. They are able to cope better when they had challenges along the line, even up to old age. Children who are well breastfed have less tantrums, less addiction, and better school performance. This can be referred to as emotional. Also talking about physical health, if you read about the component of breast milk, it did not only contain carbohydrate, protein, fats, vitamins, there is also additional factor there that is going to allow the immune system of the baby to grow, because we know that the immune system grows across time. They challenge the body nerve, which is weak in the first one year. God has given us special fluid to help the baby’s immune system grow properly. Inside the breast milk, there are already resolved factors. There are factors there that stimulate the immune system. There are bacteria there that are called friendly bacteria that stimulate the immune system, particularly in that breast milk in the first few days of life. It is yellow and it is called cholesterol.

How about adults? Some have said breast milk is also good for adults.

That’s right. Even now, adults take it because it has such a useful element in it. It makes a healthy adult. So we must not miss that opportunity. This is the time that the old and the new can combine. In our native culture there’re different ways we can do to promote lactation, and also in modern science, there are equipments that they give. There are also herbal drugs that can help in lactation.

Report has shown that there is increased rate of medical flight in the country. What is the way out?

Medical flight is natural phenomena. The fact is that things are getting tougher in the country and people are looking for a way out. If the private and government hospitals can pay their health workers well, l think it will go a long way in reducing the rate in which health workers leave the country in search of better remuneration.

What is your advice to women?

There is need for women, particularly in Lagos, to form a women group that will enable them establish community insurance. Let us have a community insurance, no matter the small amount. Let us do less fashion, and decide the amount that each will put down every month and, we have volume and we can now plan. With such plan in place, women will know hospitals to partner with, so that when they or their children are sick, they will know which hospital to visit, and such hospital will not charge them much because it is a group thing.

…says quality of representation at national legislature has dwindled

Hon Teejay Yusuf, an economist, former NANS executive at the national level in the 1990s, represented Kabba/Bunu/Ijumu Federal Constituency of Kogi, in the 7th, 8th and 9th HoR, a vibrant lawmaker on the floor of the House. In this chat with Naijablitznews Associate Editor, Gloria Ikibah spoke on President Bola Tinubu’s first anniversary, politics of fuel subsidy withdrawal, poor representation at the upper legislature and other national issues, excerpts.

President Bola Tinubu just clocked one year in office, how will you assess his administration so far?
That’s why from day one I promised myself never to contest if I can’t satisfy those I am going to represent.

You’ll be coming, you’ll make this promise, and what have you. And I remember very well, I told God, if you know that I’m going to be like that, and the narrative will be like, after he won, don’t let me win the election. So I don’t want to be part of those statistics.

So it was so bad that it is now becoming a normal narrative in Nigeria that those clichés come for election, and after election, they’re dumped in the dustbin.

So one year, you can say you have one, two, three ministers who have shown character of presence. Like I said, I had an interview a few days ago. I said, one major, major policy somersault that was a good thing to do, but was not properly articulated and managed was subsidy removal. So that took away whatever gain they would have gotten.

I remember I told people that in 2012, on Sunday, January 8, House of Reps came out with a motion against subsidy removal. I moved that motion.

And I articulated then that I’m not opposed to subsidy removal, I’m an economist. But there are processes to removal of subsidy, and there’s no country in the world that doesn’t subsidize.

But it is wrong to subsidize fuel, because you enrich and empower the rich more, and you impoverish the poor, when you subsidize fuel. But you now take subsidy into education.

A man on salary of N30,000, who’s transport from Nyanya to work, used to be N100, subsidy removal would take it to like N150, or N200, or N300.

But he should have a gain by saying, the school fees of my child is being taken care of. He’s aware that if he goes to hospital, that certain things are being taken care of.

So that’s how you do it. So take the effect. In economics, there’s a so-called ripple effect, bandwagon effect. So these things are normal.

When you hear economists define economics as social science that study human behaviour. So the behavioural pattern of an English man, it’s not the same with a Yoruba man.

My mother is a market woman. Fuel subsidy removal, it means that transport from market to market has increased. How goods will increase? She’s not waiting for interest rate. She has no time for analysis.

So until we put these things into perspective, we will not get out of this thing. Our democracy, our policies must take it to cognizance who we are as a person.

My solution would have been, President Tinubu, you know you are removing subsidy. I have a one-year plan. By December 2024, there won’t be subsidy.

But before then, by April, there will be buses out. By so, so, so, there will be this. Not that you take away fuel subsidy, you are now planning palliative. You are not beginning to do palliative. It should have been in place. So the moment you take it off, you pump in, so that this effect will not affect other areas.

Look at it, you took it out, the moment you took it out, look at what’s happening. You are now struggling to manage it and what have you.

That’s why I say, I don’t know who counseled him. I assume it’s a thorough breed politician who should have had this plan on ground for subsidy so that’s why I couldn’t, I would have said oh Eldorado but unfortunately, he’s a lie if I ever say that.

There are those who believe that what the President is doing is just like somebody who planted some crops and require some time to grow and so we are yet to get to the time to harvest. So are you part of those who believe that the time to harvest is still ahead?

It is natural that there is seed time and harvest. But if you do not plow your ground well, don’t you know what is called stunted growth? Yield can be in 30, 40, 60, 100%. So what kind of yield?

It is the suffering going to be in same measure with the result we are getting? I just analyzed something for you now.

And there’s no way, I was trying to say something of recent. There’s nowhere in the world that you have economic policy from IMF and World Bank being adopted in total in an economy and it works.

You have a responsibility to gather your own good eggs, to analyze and domesticate it. I just analyzed behavioural pattern. I told you about interest rate and my mother.

If you remember, I used to tell you then, I told IBB. When IBB said, all policies he has applied failed. Eskor said, no, all policies known to you, that you have not tried our own policies.

So I don’t agree, it’s human nature naturally, you want to build hope. Those who are saying that are trying to encourage themselves because discouragement can bring despondency and a lot of things.

So it’s good for the polity to hear those kind of things. But I don’t have high expectation.

I look at the dollar fluctuation, what have you. It’s only in Nigeria, that the dollar fluctuates. A lot of places, a lot of others, even when Zimbabwe was crashing, economy, you see how dollar rate was sustained for one month.

But in Nigeria, 10 o’clock is one naira. By three o’clock, it’s only in Nigeria. Go and check, there’s nowhere in the world they have those kind of fluctuation. How?

Simple; it’s only in Nigeria that some people does speculation on their business. They don’t go to transact anything. All they do is they buy dollar, keep to sell. It’s only in Nigeria.

So there are things that are common. It’s only in Nigeria that subsidy removal puts more money in the hand of governors. States who were taking four or five billion are now taking 11, 12, 13, 15 billion.

And an average Nigerian is not looking at the state money, we are all focusing on the national. Nobody is questioning that. So you find states buying dollars, this causes dollar fluctuation.

A lot of state governors buy dollar every month when they get their allocation to store wealth. That’s part of the challenge here. It’s only in Nigeria.

It’s only in Nigeria that the federating unit will come to Abuja every month to share money. There’s no federation anywhere in the world where such is practiced.

Canada is almost like us, multilingual, large, whatever, they have oil. There’s nowhere the central government allocate oil blocs in Canada. The regions allocate, pay tax to the centre. You are taxed according to what you are expected to have.

But in Nigeria, we all gathered here at the table. So how do you promote ingenuity? How do you make people think outside the box when they know they are getting a handout every month?

NLC is talking about minimum wage and what have you. Yeah, it’s good to have minimum wage, but in a good ideal federation, you don’t have the same rate everywhere.

You go to some area of Canada, you are paid seven times more than the other side, but you pay more tax. VAT, everything is higher in those areas. Housing is higher in those areas. The other side, because you are, the ideal of a federation is that each component unit is at liberty to grow at its own pace and based on its capacity. So we have unitary confederation.

You were a former lawmaker. Now, sometimes when during your own time, maybe when the Executive is coming up with inconsistent policies, the lawmakers will use the instrumentality of lawmaking to correct them and do checks and balances, too. Sir, do you think that this 10th Senate has helped the president to stabilize the economy? And how would you rate the 10th National Assembly?

I was supposed to be part of the 10th National Assembly, I ran for Senate. But those who know me will know that I’m not saying this because I’m not there.

Even as a PDP member, I was standing on the floor against certain policies of PDP. So that’s when APC came.

When you take oath of office, it’s not an allegiance to your party. It’s an allegiance to the nation, when you say, you will commit yourself to the good of that, and you swore an oath to that constitution.

So the 10th Senate, not just the 10th Senate, but any parliament in the world that cedes a right of choice of leadership to the Executive will not be able to perform optimally.

They are supposed to work together, Parliament and Executive, but there’s some degree of independence, when your legitimacy as a leader comes from your members, when you know that you can come in as a Speaker or Senate President and go back as a normal member, because first among equal. But when what sustains you belongs to the other arm of government, it can never. So it didn’t start from the 10th Senate, it started from the 9th Senate, National Assembly.

Going back to your 7th Assembly. You guys, on your own, made Tambuwal…

In the 8th Assembly, look at the contest between Dogara and Gbaja. APC anointed Gbaja, they were both of APC, we stood our ground and elected Dogara.

So, even when you have genuine, passionate, patriotic desire, the environment cannot allow you to operate because you have leaders who are looking around their shoulder not to be seen as being paying evil with good because somebody extended olive branch to help you.

Even when that decision you would take would be of good to the Executive, you don’t know how they would take it. So you now find people on the floor who want the Executive to see them as being good boys.

And to me, being a good boy is speaking truth. If you claim you love me and I’m heading to the ditch and you keep pampering me and I enter the ditch, or you stop me, I don’t like it, but you save me from the ditch. Tomorrow I’ll sit back.

I tell people, my mom, I lost my dad in primary school and my mom was a very tough disciplinarian, so bad that she would be traveling, I would be praying for her to die, not to come back because once you report me, there’s no question I’m the bad person.

So in those days growing up, if your friend wants to fight, you fight nah, why will I report? They will say no, don’t fight him, go and report him. I’ll start begging, because she will not ask question.

So these days when people now see me, oh, T.J,, you have ethics, values and what have you, I say “na beating they carry arrange me”.

So you can imagine if she had not done that, I would have been of best, a very strong bus conductor somewhere today.

So what you don’t understand is that the truth you don’t tell will discipline you tomorrow as a nation.

So the 10th Assembly to me, has not been able to be what it should be because of the manner it came.

And it’s unfortunately too, I’m sorry, the quality of men and women who are being recruited from Nigerian society, so it’s a reflection of where we are as a people, our values. So they didn’t come from Ghana, they are Nigerians.

So the quality has been on the decline. Every year, those who are coming are well ill equipped. And the expectation of Nigerians, too, because they are misplaced, put pressure on them not to do the right thing.

An average Nigerian once you win election is about, my wife gave birth yesterday, my children’s school fees and what have you. But when they are criticizing, they talk about the road. But when they are engaging you, they talk about those things.

So they say the things that make people feel they want development, but when they engage you, it’s about the personal benefit. And once you cannot throw that largess you are not a good man.

So the man who wants to do a good job, will now must be in the good book of the Executive to get things, so I have resources to take it. So that’s why you find a lot of good men lose election and don’t come back.

Sir only yesterday, the Senate passed a law to re-introduce the old national anthem. Is that the kind of decision we’re looking at this point in time?

I sincerely want to defer a bit, inasmuch as there are a lot of burning issues. But if in their wisdom, they look at it that the present national anthem does not really project us.

As a student union leader, we used to sing the older national item. We don’t sing the present national unit present. In fact, we even rebranded it.

I remember in 1992, IBB came to University of Jos to launch a programme. We made sure that Maiyegun was the president then and this my friend that just left now, was NANS President in 1990. The tall guy, Segun Maiyegun just took over then.

And we remember IBB sat down, settled down, we brought Maiyegun in with him when IBB was already sitting. We sang our own old version. Nigeria, we failed thee, our own dear sovereign land, hunger and death are reigning, in mournful mood we stand, Nigerians are sad to mourn, our suffering motherland. We changed Nigeria we hailed it to Nigeria we failed thee.

So at that time, we were convinced that this arise does not project us and that it’s not inspiring enough; so if they feel that, I’ve not really, really taken time to see it but to just say, it’s not. It is in the midst you are solving the big problem.

You see, no nation make tangible progress without some form of indoctrination.

An average American just believe America is the best. They’ve not gone anywhere, they don’t know anywhere. In fact, in their subconscious, PhD holder believe that Africa is just one small place and people live on trees because that is the indoctrination that has been given.

So I am of the opinion that as people, from primary school, let’s teach ethics and value and indoctrinate ourself. These bad things, we can’t change it at the top.

So maybe it is their own cosmetic approach to try to do these things, I can’t totally condemn it because it’s the rise o compatriot that inspiring or do we go to the old way? I don’t know. But I think we need some reorientation as a people.

But I don’t think it should be at the top. It should start from school. A child should know that, hey, I have a responsibility to make Nigeria a better place that I can lay my life to sacrifice. Do you have such? No.

An average Nigerian is thinking how to get out of this country. In fact it is only in Nigerian people make money and go and spend it abroad.

You are a leader, you have demonstrated that severally in the House of Reps and in other capacities. We can’t just keep lamenting, we need solution. How do we, all of us cannot embrace the “japa syndrome”. How do we take Nigeria out of the woods?

It starts from the family, our family value. I just told you about my growing up, how my mom would beat us. Do we have such discipline now? Are churches, mosques teaching those values again? You can’t give what you don’t have.

The politics, the politicians, the bankers, the doctors are a microcosm of the macro society. They are a reflection of who we are.

So what is the role of government? The government, that’s why I proposed, I supported Jonathan’s proposal for single six term of 30 years rotation, since we have six geopolitical zone, it goes around.

Because when you come into office, the first one and a year plus, or a year plus you are trying to stabilize, appointment, what have you. Second year, you are starting to get your rhythm to governance.

But at the end of that second year, by third year people are already talking about your election. You have no governance, so the next two years. So it means that a four years tenure, you work for one and a half years; two and a half years is politics.

Once you win the second term, you come in and start to stabilize again. By the time you are in second year, they remind you, you are leaving office. How can do, you must help yourself?

So in eight years, the best you can get is three and a half years or three years of governance. And look at the humongous amount you spend in election.

That’s what I say and to help us build trust and confidence such that election will not be where you come from, where you don’t come from. Let’s have this rotation first of single term of six years.

So build confidence that zone A knows that he will come to us. Zone B, so if you like when it is your tenure, do us shege, it will come to us; so until you build that confidence now.

For now, I tell people, that’s why I keep telling people who say PDP, I’m a PDP man. But PDP cannot nail his own policy on the head and expect to reap from it.

2014, Jonathan had won 2011 election. Yaradua was the president who died, he finished his tenure and what have you and the North felt, no, Obasanjo did this eight years. Yaradua was doing its time, he is going, no, PDP must give it to the North.

And five governors plus Atiku led that revolt, went to APC, got to APC, he didn’t get the ticket but he was still committed to that agenda, supported Buhari to become president.

Buhari now did eight years, he said he wants to be president. How does it sound if after eight years of Tinubu let’s assume now, a Southerner says he wants to be president? How does it sound? Because our election is still on where you come from and what have you.

Is that why people are saying that PDP is gradually going into extinction?

I disagree with that. A party with 13 governors cannot be going to extinction.

APP, that joined to form APC, had only one governor at that time. CPC had only one and this one; a party with 13?

The ambition of those governors is enough to keep the party, their ambition alone. They will want to re-contest now. Or let’s assume six left, remain seven; seven governors?

So when people say, yes, we are not taking our rightful place. The last election to me, we threw it away.

I believe 2019 that we won, that we were robbed. But this last one, we bungled it.

So until we come back to the drawing board, teach ethics and what have you, and lead by example. It should not be that today because it suits you, this is good, tomorrow it doesn’t suit us, it is not good.

If we say it should be the turn of the North in 2015, it should be the turn of the South in 2023. That’s what it should be.

So our children should not just hear what you say, they should see what we do, so as to imbibe those cultures and those values, and know that this are no go area.

So when we evolve that’s my suggestion, after those things, you can now be focusing on wherever you come from, your capacity, if you are the best man, if you want to do 100 years, do it.

But we are not there yet. We are deceiving ourselves if you say we are there. We are so divided by where you come from. That’s where we are, for now.

The call for a shift from Presidential to Parliamentary system of government. What is your take on this?

I would want to reserve my comment about that. I see it as, yeah, it’s political. Parliamentary is more accountable. But would you have equity in the present distribution of legislation, if we are to do parliamentary?

Kano has 24. Jigawa 16 that is 40. Old Oyo, comprising of Oyo, Osun, Oyo 13. Osun 7, all together 21 and Ibadan was acclaimed to be the biggest city in West Africa. “No be human dey there”; so old Sokoto, Zamfara, so this dynamics will come to play in those things.

The idea is good but do we have the tools now? No. I talked about our cleavages, ethnic nationality, and what have you.

Will I feel secured if I don’t have a voice there as a Kabba man from Kogi? And they did not give me. Or let’s say an Isoko man from Delta, if the parliament as constituted, will an Isoko man find himself in a place there?

So, we must look at all these things. So, it must go with standing reforms of our politics. And we have to take something off the constitution.

We did, in a little way, I shouted. Everything should not be in the constitution. The name of local governments in constitution, in state assembly, we wanted to correct Ibarakpa was wrongly spelled, people voted against it. They assume they want to create another local government, just the spelling.

So, there are certain issues that should not be, even local government creation should not be in the constitution. States should be able to do that.

Allocation to me that we’re even fighting now should go to local government and what have you. We should have law.

Kogi state is getting N10, if they like, have 100 local governments; there’s a procedure, there’s a law, how they will share it, it must go to them.

Development in pre independent and early part of post-independent, local governments were doing work, why? Because they own their allegiance to the people and they know what will happen.

But now, and for us Nigerians elites, we over focus on the centre, it’s good, it’s not good again. We leave the states.

I just told you just now, after subsidy removal, most states got triple what they used to get. Has anybody turned the search light on those states?

So, why we not see the ripple effect of those things in life of the people so as to cushion the effect of subsidy; why are we not seeing them?

So, I have never in any way deceived myself that I have monopoly of wisdom, I know it all and what have you. My belief that with the privilege of my relationship, I have some ideas, I can sell.

And human development will naturally, devolve with time. You make mistake, you correct yourself.

THE END